Curse

Kool Pajamas · Jun 05, 2007, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Fire = multi target damage
Air = single target damage
Earth = stationary defense
Water = mobile defense

Water is fine on damage. Mind freeze could use some sort of buff like exhaustion only if condition is met. Other than that Water magic is fine...maybe even overpowered.

Trevor · Jun 08, 2007, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Mind Freeze doesn't need a buff. Run around with it on a split for a while, and you'll see just how ridiculous 9 seconds of 90% snare is.

bhavv · Jun 08, 2007, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor

Mind Freeze doesn't need a buff. Run around with it on a split for a while, and you'll see just how ridiculous 9 seconds of 90% snare is.

As the OP has said, his points are PVE orientated. Increasing the damage that the water line does is to improve its use in PVE. It would be nice if for once the PVP morons actually bothered to stay out of PVE disscussions.

And btw, as long as the water line is doing either the same, or less damage then Fire, Air, or Even Channeling, it isnt going to be imba in PVP either.

The last I checked, Mind freeze causes Exhaustion. For a skill that causes Exhaustion it is very underpowered. Also, it doesnt always snare the enemy. Spiking with mind elites is a pretty stupid idea that will never work due to the damage limitation on the spell. 4-5 spikes and half of your max energy will be gone.

ryanryanryan0310 · Jun 08, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

As the OP has said, his points are PVE orientated. Increasing the damage that the water line does is to improve its use in PVE. It would be nice if for once the PVP morons actually bothered to stay out of PVE disscussions.

QFT

Water does need a slight buff in PVE. A nice AoE damage skill without the exhaustion.

ShadowsRequiem · Jun 08, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

funny to see a nerf wagic magic plz thread
and then a week later buff water magic plz!

Chicken Ftw · Jun 08, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

As the OP has said, his points are PVE orientated. Increasing the damage that the water line does is to improve its use in PVE. It would be nice if for once the PVP morons actually bothered to stay out of PVE disscussions.

And btw, as long as the water line is doing either the same, or less damage then Fire, Air, or Even Channeling, it isnt going to be imba in PVP either.

It'd be nice if for once the PvE idiots would comprehend that changing pretty much any skill to make it more powerful effects PvP more than PvE. In PvE, the mobs couldn't care less if you're oneshotting them with your overbuffed water magic that you seem to desire, since there's usually a hundred or more per zone. <_<

For your other point... Say there was an unremovable snare, or one that lasted for 30s for 5e with 2s recharge. that'd be pretty imba. You can't base a line's utility on damage alone. Besides, for smart players, water can already deal nearly as much damage as fire or air. That combined with the utility of snares, Blurred Vision, etc etc makes the water line just fine as it is.

Finally, before you call me out on not playing PvE, or some other false remark - I do sometimes PvE, have Legendary Guardian, and did try running a few water builds in PvE. While viable, fire magic outdamages it because the mobs mindlessly group up for easy nuking. If what you're trying to get here is a line just like fire that destroys the retarded AI with damage spells, err.. there's already fire. Why make a second line just like the first?

tenshi_strife · Jun 08, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

ok just listen, this will put this arguement to rest, this is the description of water magic in the game. just hover your mouse over the attribute.

Quote:

No inherent effect. Many Elementalist skills, especially spells that deal cold damage or slow and hinder your foes, become more effective with higher Water Magic.

bhavv · Jun 08, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

It'd be nice if for once the PvE idiots would comprehend that changing pretty much any skill to make it more powerful effects PvP more than PvE. In PvE, the mobs couldn't care less if you're oneshotting them with your overbuffed water magic that you seem to desire, since there's usually a hundred or more per zone. <_<

1) Water Magic is Not overbuffed.
2) With the changes I suggested it would still be weaker then fire, air and channeling.
3) Water is not used for spiking at all atm in HA/GVG for a reason. It does lame damage compared to other magic lines.

Compare it to the earth line. Earth is imo the most balanced attribute line on the elementalist, the damage skills do enough damage, and the protective spells provide plenty of damage reduction. Also in the air line, you have plenty of damage and plenty of knockdowns. Water magic has snares for PVP and very little other then that to make it useful in PVE. All the other attribute lines are balanced to be useful in both PVE and PVP, why cant water also be made like them too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

ok just listen, this will put this arguement to rest, this is the description of water magic in the game. just hover your mouse over the attribute.

I read Deal cold damage OR slow and hinder your foes.

The slow and hinder part is fine, the cold damage part is not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

For your other point... Say there was an unremovable snare, or one that lasted for 30s for 5e with 2s recharge. that'd be pretty imba. You can't base a line's utility on damage alone. Besides, for smart players, water can already deal nearly as much damage as fire or air. That combined with the utility of snares, Blurred Vision, etc etc makes the water line just fine as it is.

Where did i mention adding a 30 second snare? I suggest removing the limitation on the prisons and reducing the duration to counter this. That would make them pretty much the same as imagined burden and allow it to be used with fire magic, which you can already do with imagined burden if you want to.

Div · Jun 08, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

OMG BUF MONK HEALIGN PRAYERS IT DOESN'T HAVE UB3R DMG SKILLZ~~~

the point of water magic isn't necessarily to have the strongest spike. it's meant as utility. fire magic has no snares, so maybe we should add a snare effect to searing flames too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Also in the air line, you have plenty of damage and plenty of knockdowns. Water magic has snares for PVP and very little other then that to make it useful in PVE. All the other attribute lines are balanced to be useful in both PVE and PVP, why cant water also be made like them too?

Apparently you've never played with deep freeze + AoE fire damage in PvE? Before they buff the water line for PvE, they'd probably have to buff paragons, sins, and mesmers.

Winterclaw · Jun 08, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Bhavv has it right. I'm not asking for huge damage buffs to everything. I'm not suggesting that the major snares be given large damage buffs. I'm not even saying that it should do more damage than the other el skill lines. Just give some of the damage skills a slight buff.

If you think about it, it is kind of silly to say vapor blade should keep that limitation when there are air and fire spells that do the same amount of damage or a little better without it.

Quote:

Apparently you've never played with deep freeze + AoE fire damage in PvE?

So why can't ice have one or two damage spells so he doesn't need to bring fire along?

Basically it's the principle of the thing. Sure a hydromancer could bring along skills in another line, but then you wouldn't be playing a pure hydromancer. Everyone is saying that the water line is versitile, but I would argue that it's few raw damage spells aren't up to it to be called truely versitile.

reddswitch · Jun 08, 2007, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Water is fine. It could actually be a bit too good. Fire and Earth needs downing! A general downing of all 4 elements is what I'd rather have.

/notsigned

Trevor · Jun 08, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

If we're talking about exclusively PvE (even though I don't see why it matters, 60% of the posts in every PvP thread are by some clueless PvEr) then I think your best option is to not use a water ele. Should shutdown mesmers be changed so that they can be super-effective in PvE? How about cripslash warriors? Likewise, should minion masters be altered so that they are viable in PvP? Especially when fire is so ridiculously overpowered in PvE, why should water be drastically changed in the PvP perspective just so you can be original?

bhavv · Jun 08, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

OMG BUF MONK HEALIGN PRAYERS IT DOESN'T HAVE UB3R DMG SKILLZ~~~

Apparently you've never played with deep freeze + AoE fire damage in PvE?

No I havnt because Searing Flames + Barrage is better. Continually comparing healing to water is just plain stupid and lame. Elementalists are supposed to deal damage above anything else, their other effects like protection should be considered secondary to the damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor

Should shutdown mesmers be changed so that they can be super-effective in PvE?original?

Mesmers are being balanced for PVE play as we speak. The same should be done for water elementalists.

Consider how weak enemies in PVE that use water magic are compared to air and fire ones. In the exception of 20 ice imps spamming maelstrom, they are pretty pointless compared to everything else, because the water line is weak in PVE.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 08, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor

If we're talking about exclusively PvE (even though I don't see why it matters, 60% of the posts in every PvP thread are by some clueless PvEr) then I think your best option is to not use a water ele. Should shutdown mesmers be changed so that they can be super-effective in PvE? How about cripslash warriors? Likewise, should minion masters be altered so that they are viable in PvP? Especially when fire is so ridiculously overpowered in PvE, why should water be drastically changed in the PvP perspective just so you can be original?

/Thread over.

You PvE'ers can say it needs more damage all you want, but it doesn't. It's perfect as it is, for the purpose of the line. Water's not primarily about damage. It's about utility. You want damage, spec fire instead.

Ecklipze · Jun 08, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by masteroflife

sigh... so not signed. when will people realize that there is more to guild wars than dealing damage.

Amen.

------

bhavv · Jun 08, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Sigh.

Consider this. If water hadnt been buffed in the last major skill update, no one would have been using it in PVP anywhere near as much as it is being used now. It was essentially the water trident buff that got water magic realised, and gave the line viable play in PVP, but it is still pretty pointless in PVE. Some damage tweaks to make it more usefull in PVE isnt really too much to ask for, as long as they do not go over the damage lines of other attributes.

Xiaxhou of Trinity · Jun 08, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

ok not all ele lines are damage my friend.... i know im an ele, i do believe everyone knows this list but ill put it again.

Fire = Aoe Damage
Air = Spike Damage
Earth = tanking
Water = heavy snare

now each att has some skills that dont quite fit in there but all in all thats how it goes, next people will be asking for fire to have a snare and air to have aoe lol

.......you're obviously not an ele then.....
earth can tank, but water has nice armor buffs too (great in derv enchant build). earth and water can deal aoe dmg just the same as fire, though fire has more spammability. Earth has a few snares of its own, and a hybrid earth/air build is great snare/spike/KD.

shatterstone->freezing gust->ice spear/optional finishing spike and done. water is not a strictly pvp line, but in pve it's not the most ideal since with fire and earth you can clear mobs out faster. if you're saying water is underpowered, you're just not using the right combos (same concept goes for most any attribute line.....) i think the ele lines are pretty balanced, though an extra KD skill in the air line would be fun to play with (exhaustion off gale kills me =/)

masteroflife=yoda

EXPERIMENT, gg

tenshi_strife · Jun 09, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

xiaxhou...... what you just said makes you look like the biggest idiot every..... water has like 3 armor skills that dont even come close to earth.... [skill]stoneflesh aura[/skill] = better than any water magic armor. also yes water can aoe and so can earth but fire does it best...... water can spike but then so can fire.... like i said many skills dont fall into that line but MOST do....

Kale Ironfist · Jun 09, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Instead of thinking of buffing water damage up (which currently, there is no reason to), think of snaring as applying weakness or knockdown to the enemy with a harder to use removal. You're dropping their potential damage since they can't move as easily, and it also helps to spike them down if they can't kite. There's a reason why Fire is the damage king, but isn't used as much in PvP.

Water already deals enough damage with its skills, since they add a lot of utility. Any more would either overpower it so that it can be used for damage in PvE but also add MORE spike utility in PvP, or it wouldn't make any noticeable difference.

isamu kurosawa · Jun 09, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

If the elements where all buffed to deal good AoE damage, then whats the point in having different elements in the first place?. the quote from the manual says ele's CAN deal damage, not they must.

personally i think there should be more diversity in foes AL Vs individual elements rather than higher raw damage on spells. giving foes less armour Vs an element dependant on area (more so than hells precipice foes and ice elementals) would allow for more diversity in elementalists builds in PvE, while obviously not affecting PvP. I'd hate too see what water line would be like to play against with damage comparable to air + AoE effects also.